Monday, November 06, 2006


A number of blogs have responded to the recent GAYff by the venerable Tim Haggard. Pretty much across the board, the response is a combination of glee and indignation. As with some of the other comments I've seen, I am supportive of the gay community. However, the unbelievable hypocracy of people like Haggard is difficult to take. He is such an obnoxious prick.

As Zoe states on her Uncomplicated Salvation site, all kinds of excuses and machinations will be put forward to justify, excuse or flat out deny Haggard's behaviour. While the board of his church has booted him out, they have also publicly forgiven him his transgressions. As the Timster slinks out of town you can bet that in time, a few months, perhaps a year or two, he will be back, all humble, pleading forgiveness and people will buy it. They will fall in behind their fallen hero all misty eyed pouring money hand over fist into his coffers. He'll be back in business, better and richer than ever.

Once again, he will prance about his pulpit denouncing all sinners, all those who commit acts of abomination. His flock will stand mesmerized, their arms held aloft, tears flowing while his lackeys pick their pockets. Haggard, and others of his ilk are dishonest bastards who commit the ultimate betrayal. One wonders just how many of these con artists must be exposed for the frauds they are, before their dupes will catch on? I can never seem to find that tar bucket when I need it.



Terry S said...


You say that you have been a true believer for as long as you can remember. You have spent virtually all of your conscious existence imbued with jesus.

You have had no alternate exposure. You have been, in effect, brainwashed into believing that god communes with you personally. Human beings have an incredible ability to rationalize any behaviour and believe virtually anything regardless of how bizarre it might be. If you had been taught from your toddlerhood that a Pez dispenser was, in fact, a godly being with the power of life and death, without contrary evidence, you might well still believe it. Especially, if people went to great lengths to reinforce this belief with a plethora of "evidence" of supposed miracles and realized prophecies.

If god created this universe for his own glory, doesn't that indicate a great deal about his nature? Pretty big ego, wouldn't you say? Look at what Saddam Hussein built for his glory.

How is it that the world "belongs to satan" as you say? Is it not god's creation? How is it that an all knowing, all powerful god allowed that to happen? For that matter, explain satan. Did he just slip by the lord's notice?

From what you say about achieveing god's grace, you confirm that all of those who suffer in this world do so because they have not consciously accepted christ. That they follow false gods. Boy are they dumb, huh? Let the godless bastards starve. Let them be tortured, dis-membered, murdered. Men, women, children, all of them. It's their own fault. They get what they deserve. Right? God demands his due.

Explain miracles? What miracles? Again, simply because we cannot explain some events, how some people seem to recover without cause, does not mean that a god was responsible, not even "likely" resonsible. For thousands of years, people believed that solar events such as eclipses were acts of some god. Now, we know it is nothing more exotic than a shadow. Why would a god set up a system of rules - ie: the laws of physics - only to break them capriciously and at random, simply to save some individual? Just to dazzle us?

Do you believe that volunteering to help a neighbor by, say, cutting his or her grass, raking leaves or some other chores could NOT be done by a group of atheists or agnostics? Do you honestly believe that we are so mean spirited and selfish?

If I was in need of such help, and it were proffered by anyone, be it christians or zoroastrians or atheists, I would be likely to accept it. I would accept it from PEOPLE who choose to be generous or helpful to another. Their religious beliefs would have nothing to do with it. Human beings choose to help others due to their personal conscience. If I help an old lady across the street, I do so, not because god directed me, but because as a human I recognize someone in need and respond accordingly. If I choose not to help, that is also my own decision. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "the devil making me do it." (or not do it, as the case may be.)

I am not the blind one. You have been forced to wear blinders all of your life. You cannot fathom any other truth. Sadly, you and others like you, are the lesser for it. I do not choose to give over my life to a phantom.

One last thing. God chose to expose his posterior to Moses? God mooned Moses? Kinda rude, don't you think?


Terry S said...

The comment below may seem to be a non-sequiter. It is a continuation of a debate, if you will, between myself and Peter. We were adding comments on an older post of mine which is kind of getting buried well down the list. At his request, I just brought it out a bit more into the current light.


Terry S said...

I am reading Dawkins' THE GOD DELUSION. He includes an interesting point. A god cannot, by definition both omniscient and omnipotent.

An omniscient god knows exactly what, when and how he (she,it) is going to act in a future situation. If that is true, then he (she,it) forfeits his (her,its) omnipotence because he (she,it) cannot change his (her,its) mind, without forfeiting his (her,its) omniscience. Follow that one back and forth for a while.


Peter said...

My goodness Terry,

As I read your reply I seem to think your the one with blinders on. I did not say that I have been influenced by christianity my hole life. I said that since I gave my life to the Lord I can see in retrospect how God had His hand in my life. Three years ago I was born again into the everlasting life in Jesus christ. Prior to my conversion I was very open minded if you will, I smoked pot everyday, I thought it would be awsome to have a star trek future, I believed in evolution for the most part of what I was taught in public school. I also voted democrtic and liberal and thought alot like you. I didn't go as far as to say God didn't exist but I did often wonder if God did exist how could He allow so much bad stuff to happen? Now since my conversion of faith I can see even more clearly after discovering through my own research and study just who God really is. God is not like man in alot of ways He created us in His image, He did not create us to be like Him but to serve Him, and what an honor it is to serve HIm. Now prior to my conversion I was indeed a slave to sin as you are now, I was a slave to drugs, and lust like pornography, and pride, I thought I was a pretty good person, I was pretty honest and friendly and didn't back stab or cheat. I was my own authority. Until I met my wife of today and came to this realization that I quit smoking cigerettes and pot, but the porn had a hold of me and I couldn't break free from it, until I gave my life to Christ I wasn't able to break the bonds of lust that had ahold of me, it's not me, but what Christ has done through me. I couldn't commit to a marrige knowing I had a porn addiction. I tryed sex addicts anonymus and other self help programs and even conseling and nothing worked. This is what God used to bring me to Him. This is my testimony in short. I have been transformed by the renewing of my mind sense my conversion. You call it brain washing, I call it a biblical world view. This is were we differ on perspective. You not understanding who God really is and I understand alot more than you, not knowing everything about Him cause no one can.

Now about Satans riegn and power in this world, No he did not just slip by God, Satan was cast down from heaven to earth for wanting to be like God, or wanting to dethrone Him, God at the time could have easily vanished him, I'm sure, however He didn't. because God devised a plan before He created satan that involved him and us. It says in the bible that we will judge angels in heaven eternally, So as I see it, and this is only my opinion, God has us here as a proving grounds for our service in heaven. Just a theory and totaly mine.

Now about your staement that God can't be omnicient and omnipotient at the same time, this just shows me the naivness of your famous authors lack of understanding about the God of the universe. God is the same yesterday, today and forever, he never changes and never changes His mind. He already knows everything that has been or will ever be, it apears to us and to some of writers of the bible that God changed His mind but no God actualy got them to change their minds. That is the purose of prayer, not to get what we want from God, but that we might rightfully understand what it is God wants from us, and if I pray for someting and it apears God answers my prayers, I didn't influence Him to do anyting, He already knows what I need and want, the wants of my life He rarely fulfills but the needs are always met. There isn't one cell or atom out of Gods control. He has already chosen who will be saved and who won't be saved. I hope you are chosen by God, However I don't know only He does.

Now as far as miracles go,since aparently you haven't heard any or seen any I'll share a few. The first is one I witnessed in Colorado Springs about a year ago, the sound board operator at my church was driving up in the mountains of Colorado and came across a young man sitting in his car facing the edge of a cliff, about a thousand foot drop off. Victor aproched the youngman named John and asked him if he was alright only to notice he was wearing a blind fold. He talked with John for about an hour and convinced him for the time being, not to drive off the cliff. The next day however John was back at the same place in his car, facing the same drop off and right before he drove off the cliff he said "God if your real prove it!" and drove off the cliff in his mazda protoge. As he tumbled down the cliff the intire car caved in around him, everything was crushed and mangled but the area around the drivers seat, he walked away from the car with only a scratch on his right knee. They showed the pictures of his car at church and you could see that it was a complete miracle that he is still alive. And yes he gave his life to the Lord the same day and has been serving since. The next is a story I was told by another church member, the gold medalist in dead lift wieght lifting in the olympics, Shane Haman, Not sure if you have heard of him, he shared a story of how he and his brother and friends were playing basket ball and his brother jumped up to dunk and landed wrong an his ankle, snaping it to one side and tearing the skin, Shane and friends laid hands on his brother and watched as his foot snapped back into place and the skin healed right before their eyes. And finally I read a book called Fear no Evil by Deny Nissly and his testimony of how before he got saved he was working in a warehouse and 2000bls of compressed cardboard fell on him, destroying his leg and knee. By inverting his lower leg toward his chest. After several surgeries to try and save his leg he was looking at a life time of disability. On the night of his conversion they laid hands on him and said he was healed. He got up in disbelief and pulled of his leg brace, to his amazement he was pain free and totaly mobile and able to walk, jump and run. He went back to the surgeons and they checked him out and all the bolts and metal implants were gone, all the tendons and muscles they removed were back and his leg was and is completely restored. I highly recomend reading fear no evil its a great book. Now about the christians showing up at your house offering acts of service. I only said that as an example of what I believe more christians should be doing. No I don't think agnostics or athiest are mean spirited or selfish. Just alittle brain washed by evolution. And lost in your sins and delusions of grandure. I ask you this, how do you tell right from wrong? If God doesn't exist then how do you explain these miracles? These peolpe have nothing to gain by telling these stories. I only hope and pray that God is useing these chats to bring you in to his kingdom. Oh and it looks like you've found one chi=ristian that doesn't hate athiests or homosexuals. :)

Terry S said...


Where to start?

I'm sure many people found it an "honor to serve" the Roman Emperors Nero or Claudius. They were both mad men. So to with your god at least as depicted in you inerrant bible.

Sorry if I mis-interpreted your history. However, your story does not change my perception.

Churches are filled with former druggies, porn addicts; sinners of every stripe who have risen above it all and found jesus.

If it has worked for you to make your life better, that's a good thing. However, I see it as trading one set of addictions for another - your "biblical world view." The change in your life did not come from within you, but from without. If your belief in god was somehow suddenly taken from you, you might well sink back to your old life as you would have nothing on which to hold.

You make a couple of statements that appear to contradict each other. In one you claim that god does, in fact, know all, has always known all, and never changes. You also say in reference to satan that god created satan and, then "devised a plan" involving him in human existence.

In devising this plan, god must, by definition of the word, have made choices. A little of this, a little of that, not too much of this. If god already knew all, why did he find it necessary to "devise a plan?"

In all this you claim that god has already chosen who will be saved and who has not. If that be the case, then again, I ask, what is all this about? A rigged game? What you are saying is that it matters not what we do, how we live our lives, what we believe. We are predestined to either eternal bliss or eternal suffering. That's fair. Under those circumstances what difference can it possibly make WHAT we do or think? Regardless of whether I accept jesus or not, my ticket is already punched. As far as you know, your recently found fealty to god will get you nowhere. It makes no sense. Think about it!

Just what "delusions of grandeur" do you suppose atheists have? We believe that we are born, we live, we die. Pretty grand, huh?

As to your supposed miracles: Your driving off the cliff guy was simply lucky. If you ran somebody off the same cliff in the same kind of car 100 times, a number of them would probably die, more would incur serious injury, others not so much, and a few - one or two perhaps might walk away. For all, it would simply be the luck of the draw.

As to the other miracles, your information is, at best, second hand. The individuals may have been deluded, or perhaps - heaven forbid - they just could have been lying. You say they had nothing to gain? Of course they did. Attention and fame come to mind. Maybe even money. Doesn't even have to be a lot of money. A little fame and a little money can go a long way. Both are significant motivaters for stretching the truth.

Do you really believe that humans cannot discern right from wrong without god? You certainly have a low opinion of us - yourself included. You say that before your "re-birth" that while you had your vices, you were not a particularly bad person. Why not? If you were not a true disciple of jesus, if you had not given your life to god, then how could you possibly be anything but totally evil? Why aren't all the heinous crimes of this world committed by athiests?

Finally, you are so energized by your re-birth, that it apparently doesn't occur to you when you accuse me of being a "slave to sin" that on a personal level that is pretty rude. I am NOT a slave to sin. I am a normal, flawed human being. I am ethical. I am moral by any reasonable standard I know of. I like dogs, and I don't kick cats. I just don't believe in god. Any god. That is my choice. I am happy with being unburdened of faith.

I don't imagine that I will be the pin that pops your bubble. You are content, married, and free from the addictions which caused your downfall. As I said, that is a good thing - for you at any rate. But that goes nary an inch in moving me toward surrendering my mind or heart to any god.


Peter said...

My Dear Terry,

Let me first apoligize for accusing you of being a slave to sin. I got caught up in the moment. Now once again about our Father in heaven, He doesn't live in the confinds of time like me and you, He does make choices with out comprimising His omnipotence or omniscience, because He is perfect. He never makes a bad decision or questions His choice. He knows that He knows what He does is perfect and holy and just. Now as far as agnostics delusions of grandure, um yes you believe your born, you live, you die, and you answer to no one for any of the thoughts or deeds you've had or done. And the thing inside us that tells us right from wrong is our conscience, given to you and me by God. The bible says that God has writen His law on everyone's heart. Which is what tells us what's right and what's wrong.

He has also made us all with the want and desire to worship. An appetite to be loved and satisfied, and there are plenty of things in this world to worship and wet our appetites. However there's only One who can satisfy these desires completely, and that is Jesus Christ. Kinda like when your really hungry and you go to the buffet and stuff yourself, your full but not satisfied. When you come to Jesus He satisfies you better than the buffet. Now He doesn't remove the appetite, He just offers the best love to satisfy, which is why you have instances like Ted Haggard, he satisfied his wants with the wrong things, obviously. Which just reminds us that salvation doesn't mean perfection here on earth, just forgiveness, perfection comes later in heaven.

Now I remember when you said that if I was raised to believe that the pez despinser was god and to worship the pez everyday and that's all I knew I would do it. There is alot of truth to that and rightfully so, I just stated that God made us all to worship. So I apply this theory to you, in that mabey you were brain washed when you were taught about evolution.
Even though evolution claims to be a science it does use some science. However alot of it is religion and requires more faith and belief than Christianity. Do you supose that about two hundred years ago when evolution was first being thought up that over the years it developed and matured into the religion it is today? And sadly enough the Chrstians through out the developement of evolution bought into the lie aswell. I'm sure you've heard of the gap theory? If not it's simply that people tryed to get the Genisis story to say that each of the seven days of creation took place over a period of time and not in actual 24 hour day. Which is a harassy, God did indeed create the world and the universe in seven literal days about six thousand years ago and about 4400 years ago there was a flood and that changed everything. Now before the flood man lived for 900 years and there was a canopy of ice around the planet that increased the air pressure and there was more land than water on the surface of the earth, and thus the oxygen was 15-20% richer. Have you heard of hyperberic chambers? How major sport teams and hospitals use them because in a hyperberic chamber the athletes heal twice as fast. Now back before the flood the whole earth was like a hyperberic chamber. Now like you, I am guessing, we were taught that dinousars lived millions of years ago, right? No, before the flood when man was living for 900 years so were the animals and the reptiles. Reptiles never stop growing their entire life, so a 500 year old lizard or snake could grow quite large in that much time. Evolution teaches that we're getting better and evolving into super humans, when in reality we're getting worse. It has been scientifically proven that the universe is decaying, much like everything here on earth. Where did all the dinasours go? They were hunted down and killed for sport for the most part and there are still some alive today in remote areas of the world. Not as big as they were before the flood but alive none the less.

And finally, when you look at a painting how do you know there was a painter?
When you look at a building how do you know there was a builder?
When you look at creation how can you say there isn't a creator?
It never occured to you that all the history of this world doesn't date back before 4400 years? The oldest tree in the world, 4400 years old, hmm wonder why that is?
Mabey because God made everything and 4400 years ago flooded it all to let it start over with this generation in mind. God has done many things to stump evolutionist and will continue to till the day He returns. Now it saddens my heart to think that you and so many others don't believe that God even exists becuase you can't see Him with your eyes or touch Him with your hand. Yet He has done so many things to reveal Himself to us and it's sad how many don't want to look. Now do you really want to base your eternity on what some guys thought up 200 years ago to decieve many or do you maybe want to try looking into your bible to see if there is some truth to it? You seem to have taken the time to educate yourself with plenty of things that allow you to remain agnostic, why not try researching the bible to see if it's really the word of God or just some really warped fantasie? Stop pointing your finger at all the wrong in the world and all the things that people do and have done in the name of Christianity that seem to be just evil and wrong. Don't forget the Devil hates Christianity and us, and will do and does anything he can to trick us into not believing in God. So I ask you what do you have to lose by researching the bible? If you do the research and indeed prove that God never existed then your all set, or if you find it to be true that God does indeed exist, you my friend have some things to decide from that point, I hope and pray that you chose Christ. I have enjoyed this time in descusion with you about this subject and hope you have too. Oh and there are some great links on my blog to assist you in starting your research, if you dare to research the bible for yourself. I don't know what happened in your past that led you to turn your back on God but I know that He is still right there, behind you, arms open wide to hold you and love you as only He can....

Peter said...

This is an explanation of
why God allows pain and suffering. It's an explanation
I hope you will understand.

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his
beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have
a good conversation. They talked about so many things and
various subjects.

When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the
barber said: "I don't believe that God exists." "Why do you say
that?" asked the customer. "Well, you just have to go out in the
street to realize that God doesn't exist. Tell me, if God exists,
would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned
children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things."

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn 't want to start an argument. The barber finished his
job and the customer left the shop. Just after he left the
barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard.

He looked dirty and unkept.The customer turned back and
entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: "You know what?
Barbers do not exist." "How can you say that?" asked the
surprised barber.
"I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!"
"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did,
there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed
beards, like that man outside."

"Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens is, people do not
come to me." "Exactly!"- affirmed the customer. "That's the
God, too, DOES exist! What happens, is, people don't go to Him and do not look for Him. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the
world." Just an added thought for you...

Terry S said...


I will endeavor to make this brief.

First, it is unlikely that either of us will succeed in moving the other from our respective positions.
I know that you are sincere in your efforts, and that much I appreciate.

But truly, it is as if we are from two different universes. We can barely communicate in the same language. What we are saying to each other passes far above or below us. There is so little common ground.

Suffice it to say that I came upon my dis-belief honestly. I have read, studied, and, perhaps most importantly, considered all of this a great deal, especially in recent years. I do not take this lightly. As you know, the stakes are pretty high. If I'm wrong, as I've said repeatedly, there will be hell to pay. On the other hand if you are wrong as I believe you are - well, nothing. No one will ever know.

One cannot manufacture faith. I have witnessed enough in my life to be certain that my choice is the correct one. I am not deluded. I am not being led by satan. I am following my mind and heart in the knowledge I have gained over the years. If you believe that to be hubris, I cannot convince you other wise.

You have made your choice. You have accepted what you have learned during the last few years as the absolute truth. Be content with that. You can leave this poor soul to wander in the wilderness.

I'll be sure to wave as you and the other rapturites are carried off to paradise, leaving all of us doomed and damned souls here on the devil's planet. Maybe then I could get some Colts' tickets.


Peter said...

Ok Terry,
I guess I have to say the dreaded "we agree to disagree", but I am comforted to know that I gave you all that I could on this matter from this distance. I thank you for your time and hope that maybe your opinion of christians like me is a little brighter. My opinion of agnostics is still the same however. It's not a bad opinion, I don't think anyway. So when the rapture happens, if it does in your lifetime, I hope that you can get Colt's tickets and more importantly I hope that you look to the Word of God instead of the news paper to see what will happen next. Start in Revelation 6-19, it will give you a rough over view of what to look forward to. In any case I will continue to monitor your blog and occasionaly comment about what you've taken the time to write about. Fair enough? Ok Terry, hope all is well with you and that you have a bountiful Thanksgiving. :)